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Agenda item

Agenda item

Cabinet Question Time 19:05 - 19:55

Meeting of Skills, Economy and Growth Scrutiny Commission, Monday 20 November 2023 7.00 pm (Item 4.)

Minutes:

4.1 The Chair introduced the cabinet question time for Cllr Williams. By explaining that a key element of the scrutiny function is to hold the Mayor and Cabinet to account in a cabinet question time session.

4.1.1 The Chair explained that in the municipal year, the Commission holds a question time session with the Cabinet Member and senior officers to ask questions about performance and decision making within the Council related to their portfolio that was within the remit of the Skills, Economy and Growth Scrutiny Commission.

4.1.2 The Cabinet Member was asked to provide information to the scrutiny commission about the work the Council is doing in the topic areas outlined below. The 3 areas being discussed are:

1. The Council’s Green Skills and Circular Economy Commission

2. National and regional challenges impacting the delivery of apprenticeships.

3. The Council’s role in delivering technology training to older residents to build their confidence and ability to access and use the internet.

4.1.3 The Chair highlighted that bullet point 3 was a topic raised by a resident in the O&S public consultation.

4.1.4 The information noted in the agenda packs for the item are outlined below.

· Presentation on Green Skills and Circular Economy workplan

· Presentation Apprenticeship Programme Evaluation.

4.1.5 The Chair also explained that there is a fourth topic area about the work of the Diversity and Tech Commission was written update on page 29-30 in the agenda.

4.2 The Chair welcomed to the meeting Cllr Carole Williams, Cabinet Member Employment, Human Resources and Equalities and Dujon Harvey,Assistant Director Employment, Skills & Adult Learning.

4.3 The discussion item commenced with a verbal update from Cllr Williams covering the three areas outlined in bullet point 4.1.2 above.

4.3.1 The Cabinet Member highlighted that the presentation in the agenda outlined the proposals to deliver the Green Skills Commission. The work to date for the Commission’s work has predominately been desk-based research. The insight runs up to April 2023 and provides insight into the London wide green skills demand for London and Hackney. This is in addition to recent publications about green (London and Hackney) from the WPI Economics, Greater London Authority (GLA) and Oxford Economics research.

4.3.2 Primary indicators suggest that green jobs will be focused in power/energy, homes and building as well as in the reduce, reuse, recycle and repair sub sectors.

4.3.3 The council intends to review the data on a 6 monthly basis in preparation for green skills.

4.3.4 Central London Forward (a strategic partnership formed of 12 London boroughs) commissioned some early analysis of green skills that will provide details about the carbon retrofit labour demand across London. The analysis was carried out by whole life consultants. The analysis indicates that 81% of Hackney homes and 84% of other buildings have an ECP rating of up to C. To achieve an ECP rating above C will require personal labour over a significant number of years.

4.3.5 The Council’s Employment, Skills and Adult Learning Service is using a proportion of funding secured by adult education. This is ring fenced to support the low paid and the unemployed to access the skills pathways into good jobs, through training for green skills and sustainable fashion. This will supporting the Council’s strategic plans to maximise employment opportunities and ensure there is a just transition for displaced workers. In addition to addressing the underlying drivers for poverty and inequalities.

4.3.6 The Cabinet Member confirmed there are 216 course opportunities (up to level 2) for Hackney residents to retrain in affected areas e.g. construction and retrofit demand.

4.3.7 The Commission was also informed that ESOL had designed its training to connect with training providers and local employers and tailored their course content specifically towards the growth sectors and industries.

4.3.8 The current focus is on the wider eco system around green skills and the economy. This is yielding an understanding of where training and jobs are emerging.

4.3.9 ESOL and economic development will carry out a mapping exercise in March 2024. This feeds in from the commissioned work by Economic Development.

4.3.10The Cabinet Member advised that whilst they have been doing work to underpin the research base for the Green Skills and Circular economy Commission, the work to deliver green skills is in progress and not reliant on the Commission being established. The sectors will include delivering solar panels for residential properties, EV charging etc.

4.3.11In relation to the challenges facing apprenticeships the Cabinet Members started this verbal update by thanking officers for their work collating the data.

4.3.12The insight in the presentation highlights the challenges facing London and Hackney’s employers. This topic is also a key area of work by Central London Forward (CLF). Overall figures from borough are being monitored regularly by London Council’s too.

4.3.13The key challenges are:

a) Since the introduction of the levy the numbers have fallen sharply since 2017 academic year by 29%nationally and 15% in London.

b) Hackney has seen a decline in numbers since the pandemic and this has not recovered.

c) SMEs have been providing fewer apprenticeships since 2016. But there has been an increase in the number of larger employers offering apprenticeships.

4.3.14 In relation to apprenticeship numbers in Hackney the numbers increased in 2017-18 and in 2018-19. But for 2019/20 and 2020-2021 the numbers remained static at 133 and 134 for all starts across the Council’s apprenticeship program.

4.3.15The intermediate level apprenticeship starts have fallen but this is a similar picture across London.

4.3.16In 2016/17 the number of apprenticeships for under 19s declined too. This declining number will contribute to the skills shortage in areas like construction and retrofit. This decline also reduces the opportunities for up skilling and the earning potential for non-academic learners.

4.3.17This will also have implications for socio economic mobility and disadvantaged groups.

4.3.18The Commission was informed that there has been a reduction in the number of young apprenticeships at level 2. This will have an impact on the opportunities for young people particularly for young people with low or no formal qualifications.

4.3.19There are also challenges around the apprenticeship levy itself. CLF are expected to be lobbying the Government for reforms on how the apprenticeship levy can be spent.

4.3.20In relation to digital skills for residents, the council has launched a new skills and learning opportunity for residents. This includes essential digital skills certificate in coding and creative computing. This also incudes basic entry level skills for networking e.g. using social media and functional skills.

4.3.21There is also a digital buddy’s scheme for all levels, and this is free for all hackney residents. This can be accessed via the digital buddy’s service or by emailing digitalskills@hakcney.gov.uk / iag@hackney.gov.uk.

4.3.22The Cabinet Member encouraged residents to sign up to the Hackney opportunities newsletter. Pointing out that it is distributed weekly and covers jobs, training, and apprenticeships.

4.3.23The Cabinet Member highlighted that the newsletter issued that week featured information about adult learnings free online course.

4.4 Questions, Answers and Discussion

(i) Members commented that discussions to date have indicated that there are skills limitations for large scale green projects being completed by local traders e.g. solar panels. Members asked if the council had detailed information about the demand for green skills from local traders who might want to deliver services?

(ii) Members asked if there is a skills gap and if apprenticeships were a solution?

In response the Cabinet Member for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH confirmed there is a gap, but it will not be covered by apprenticeships. Although apprenticeships will be important for people who want to enter the labour market there will also be a requirement to upskill staff in the council and in the industries in current roles.

It is also important to note that there will be several jobs they currently have that might be classified as a green skill role, but the worker will still require more training. Therefore, a range of solutions will be needed to bridge the skills gap.

The Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH provided details on the numbers from the research by CLF. The research refers to 10,000. The AD confirmed this is 10,000 person hours to retrofit homes e.g. electrical plumbing etc. The previous estimate was 5000 however 2200 of the 5000, relates to the net growth in jobs for construction / electrical.

Although the council understands the net jobs growth the traders are not clear about the skills needed. Despite having the estimate of 10,000 hours to retrofit homes there is still ambiguity on the number of people required and the skills level.

The AD referred to the presentation and pointed out that the council has started the work looking at the entry level skills. So, apprenticeships will be a feature. This starts from non-accreditation through to level 2 training. This will give individuals outside the labour market the ability to access the initial training to be able to transition to those roles.

It is also important to note the rationale for the work (funded by job and skills for Londoners) which related to concern that the emergence of the green sector and green skills requirements would displace the current workforce of plumbers, electricians, scaffolders etc. The current workforce will need new skills and some of these skills will be short courses. This was linked to the 216 courses referenced in the presentation. They will allow individuals to get the necessary certification so they will not be displaced from their current profession.

(iii) In a follow up question Members pointed out that retrofitting a building could be piece meal rather than taking a holistic approach. Members pointed out a cavity wall insultation could be carried out, but this would be in isolation and another problem could appear in another part of the building if the problem was not viewed holistically.

The Chair pointed out that it would be difficult for the Assistant Director to respond to that questions because this does not sit in his purview. Adding that whole house retrofit sits within another service area.

In response the Cabinet Members for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH agreed with the Members and pointed out that the council is currently doing research to identify the skills requirements. However, the Cabinet Member acknowledged this was not just related to employment and skills but also included transport, housing etc.

The Cabinet Member informed the Commission the Council still needs to decide about how they will achieve this and if this will be across housing, by neighbourhoods or a smaller geographical area. Pointing out that there are still a few decisions to be made.

Although it is complex this cannot be delivered by the Employment and Skills Team alone. The Employment and Skills Team would be leading on the Green Skills Commission aspect, but this had a wider remit.

(iv) Members referred to the Executive’s response to the Scrutiny’s report on Net Zero. On page 91 in the agenda (the equality impact assessment) and commented they council needed to ensure the quality of training and jobs in the green economy were accessible to disadvantaged groups. Suggesting the apprenticeships were targeted at underrepresented groups. Members asked how the Green Skills and Circular Economy Commission will address this to make sure access was equitable?

In response the Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH informed the Commission this was built into the way the course delivery was designed and they were working specifically with training providers in the borough. In commissioning the courses, they had built in target-to-target disadvantaged groups with specific metrics around the demographics that were identified in the research as disenfranchised or underrepresented in the industries.

The AD pointed out that within construction there are different areas such as the build environment, procurement, finance etc. These are specific areas where people are disadvantaged with barriers disproportionately affecting people from some communities, particularly the higher skills levels in the green industries.

The AD informed the Commission that before establishing the commission, the Council’s objective was to understands the full breadth of the challenges. The AD referred to the timeline in the presentation that outlined the planned working leading up to summer 2024.

The AD pointed out as indicated in Members questions an area of the challenge was how the council will ensure it is working with the right organisations and services, to make sure the commission is all encompassing and not just focus on developing skills.

The aim is to understand how they develop skills that intersect with demographics, and they work with the correct and adequate partners in the borough.

The Council is also working with other boroughs in developing the green skills hubs etc. taking forward specific work in Hackney.

AD advised the Commission they had agreed an economic development plan with Kensington and Chelsea borough, and this was due to report in March 2024. This will also include place-based elements. The insight is showing that people will be displaced by the green transition in the borough. Therefore, for the people furthest away from the labour market and disadvantaged they will do outreach and skills delivery.

The skills delivery is an 80/20 model. That is 80% is commissioned and 20% is provided in house. The AD pointed out the council has mechanisms in place to pivot. Therefore, if they are successful with one disadvantaged group they can flex and change to another group as required.

In response the Cabinet Members for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH added not only does the council have a proven track record of delivering for disadvantaged and marginalised groups. The Employment Skills Team have led on the Diversity in Teach work. The Cabinet Member highlighted that the apprenticeship program and supported internship and training program was focused on groups that have been the most marginalised, disadvantaged and excluded from the labour market. This has been and will continue to be key to the way they deliver employment and skills outcomes for residents.

(v) Members asked what success for the Green Skills and Circular Economy Commission would look like?

In response the Cabinet Members for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH informed the Commission that she would like to see a different outcome to that of the tech sector. The Cabinet Members pointed out that this sector emerged organically in the borough which had some benefits but also created some significant barriers for Hackney residents in relation to jobs in the sector.

The Cabinet Member would like to see the Commission achieve inclusivity across multiple sectors including higher and further education. To have employers and residents deliver the best outcomes and be involved in the decision-making process. The Cabinet Member also wanted to see Members voices included too. The Cabinet Members also wanted to see more co-production work with residents through colleges, schools, or universities.

The Cabinet Member also wanted to see the inequality income gap narrowing in the borough so that every level of employment is without a diversity gap like they can see in construction. Visibility of the gaps closing for women, black and global majority people, people with a disability and LGBTQ residents. All accessing good quality well paid jobs.

(vi) Members asked about the most successful apprenticeships in Hackney and if this aligns with the largest sector in the economy locally.

In response the Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH advised the historically the most successful apprenticeships were in IT (cyber security, infrastructure). However, this had changed since the pandemic and due to the structure of the council.

The IT footprint for apprenticeships had declined and they no longer had the largest apprenticeship group. The largest apprenticeships rate in the council was in construction. These apprenticeships are usually in level 2 or level 3 in traditional building trades like plumbing. This year they had 24 apprenticeship starts in the Council’s DLO service. This mirrors the external apprenticeship market.

24 apprenticeship starts represents the size of a medium size construction site in the borough. The main difference between the two is that the Council’s internal apprenticeships do not tend to get the same level of experience as they would in the external apprenticeship market because they are solely working on repairs.

The AD explained that when the apprenticeships were initially rolled out, they identified an experience gap with apprentices working in the Council’s services compared to the external market. This was hindering their transition into a longer-term career or higher-level apprenticeship outside of the council.

The Employment and Skills Team have been in dialogue with the repairs service and commenced a pilot this year which includes a work experience element. The students can go into the external market to work with developers to give them experience of working on a live site (not council homes, community centres or buildings for repair). This is proving to have an impact.

The Council’s apprenticeship program’s retention rate and completion rates continuously tracks above the national average. The key objective is to ensure they have long term sustainability careers. The Employment and Skills Team track their apprentices to the best of their ability beyond the program.

(vii) Members commended the increase in construction apprenticeships and the Council’s working to support students to get the full range of skills to complete their qualification. Members referred to page 16 and the points about successful apprenticeship hires. Members asked how the Council is ensuring the knowledge and experience it has acquired from running successful apprenticeships is being used to help smaller businesses (SMEs and micro business). Members queried how this experience was being shared to ensure all local apprenticeships were successful and that businesses want to continue them. Members queried if there was business mentoring, digital training etc.

In response the Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH explained the Hackney apprenticeship network was established in 2018 in line with the manifesto commitments. This is the mechanism they use for sharing information. The network focuses on small and medium enterprises. A hallmark of the Council’s internal program is pastoral support which includes mentoring as mentioned and an evaluation has found that this has had a significant impact on the success of the program. The Employment and Skills Teamwork with managers in the business and provide training to support their management and development of an apprentice. The AD pointed out the organisation need to adopt a different culture when taking on an apprentice compared to a normal hire.

The pastoral support is provided by an in-house team in the council which is quite small. There is one individual in the team that manages the pastoral support across the council’s portfolio of apprenticeships.

A management training program has been developed for managers in businesses to understand pastoral support. There are plans to develop a wider network of mentorship and link this into their wider employment and skills program around pre-employment for apprenticeships. The council is aiming to align more closely to the wider market for the apprenticeship program network. This is to ensure they are better prepared.

The AD highlighted that a concern in the apprenticeship market is the shallowing out of level 2 and level 3 apprenticeships. This is due to the apprenticeship levy reforms. Businesses are becoming more stringent about who they select for their apprenticeship and their expectations are higher because there is less standards. It was pointed out under their pre-apprenticeship model the council’s own employability program guides businesses extensively through the selection process to ensure they are getting the right people and that the people are matched to the right type of role.

The council is ensuring that the ongoing support given to individuals is not just about making sure they understand behaviours but also, they understand the industry they are entering into for the apprenticeship to track them from level 2 - level 7 and beyond.

In response the Cabinet Members for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH added she would previously refer to the council’s apprenticeship program as a multi award winning program, but the pandemic has changed this significantly. However, it was the Cabinet Member’s view that awards are key to driving up the quality not only for the council as an employer but also for businesses that employ apprentices.

The Cabinet Member agreed they needed to return to measuring what success looks like and what an equality apprenticeship looks like for apprentices across the borough.

The Cabinet Member pointed out that the work and lobbying by CLF in relation to the apprenticeship levy reform will be key to delivery of apprenticeships in partnership with SMEs and micro businesses. This needs to be resolved so employers feel they can take on apprentices and so they deliver a quality experience for Hackney residents across all levels. It will also be key for the council to focus on new starts as well as those transitioning later in life e.g. older workers.

(viii) Members referred to page 17 of the report relating to apprenticeship vacancies advertised and queried why there was a big drop in the number of applications compared to those progressing into the second round?

(ix) Members commented that the Hackney Apprenticeship Network was successful in covering a range of factors and that the completion rate was high for teaching roles in schools. Members asked what could be done locally to improve those outcomes?

In response the Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH explained the volume of applications was linked to the advertisement. As a result, a wide breadth of people apply for apprenticeships, however a large proportion will not be suitable for various reasons. For example, some may not have the correct qualification level or the pre-entry requisites like functional skills / maths.

The councils short listing process is stringent and designed to match people to the right apprenticeship. As they go through this process, they will filter out people who might be applying for multiple roles (i.e. successful in 1 out of 6). In addition, there will be the behaviour elements and understanding the culture requirements for the roles too.

In addition, the recruitment timeline for an apprenticeship can take some time and this can impact on the drop off rate as people may have applied for other roles and found another job while going through the process.

The AD remarked that the council’s communications strategy and advisements would look to provide a deeper understanding of the apprenticeship and the requirements. This may result in less people applying for the apprenticeships but should mean they apply for the right type of apprenticeship opportunity.

In response to the question about improving outcomes. The AD explained although they are not regulated the council uses the apprenticeship network as a mechanism to support businesses to access training providers approved by the council. The council has identified that there have always been some issues around quality of the training provision if the employer selects it themselves. Thus, impacting on the length of time an individual stays on an apprenticeship. Particularly if they do not have pastoral support.

The AD pointed out some training providers can be rouge and for Hackney they sign post employers to the training providers vetted by the council. The AD informed the Commission the program managers within the team do a lot of work to check the training provisions and work with procurement colleagues in relation to the training provider tender specifications for the council’s programs.

(x) Members asked if the council is learning from other boroughs in London about their apprenticeship programs and the challenges facing councils.

(xi) Members asked if the council has obtained the right balance in relation to supporting people into their first role and providing opportunities for existing staff to develop?

In response the Cabinet Member for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH informed this is constantly discussed with the Assistant Director. The Cabinet Member explained there is an expectation that apprenticeship opportunities are for young people, but the council’s program has no upper age limit. They must get the balance right, but it also must be based on evidence from outcomes and the requirements across their local labour market.

In response to question 2 the Cabinet Member for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities advised the figures are monitored regularly by London Councils. The council has several good practices and is still a leader in London.

The council is aware there is an aging workforce so delivering for services that may require a new workforce or need talent planning will be key in terms of how people experience apprenticeships. The key to having an award-winning program is delivering what people want and is also shown in the feedback from managers and apprentices about their personal experiences.

(xii) In a follow up question about hiring Members referred to page 17 and reflected the time the process takes (approximately 6–12-months). Members asked if this was typical for apprenticeship recruitment and if this dissuaded some departments from taking on an apprentice.

In response the Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH acknowledged it was a long period of time and that it was affected by the downturn in the overall figures and the pandemic. The AD explained the lack of activity industry wide in all sectors for apprenticeships during the pandemic meant that services diverted from this in their service structure.

Prior to the pandemic the team was being approached by managers wanting to take on apprentices. The knowledge base of departments in relation to apprenticeship has declined - compared to their understanding in 2018/19 - therefore it is taking longer to broker apprenticeships with departments. E.g. understanding the benefits of having an apprentice, how to structure their payments, management requirements and pastoral support. If they can make sure the department is knowledgeable before recruiting an apprentice this can save time. This is being addressed in the team’s service plan.

Currently apprentices can be seen as an additional resource to a service, but the success of the program is predicated on explain that apprentices bring skills and attract a level of work that they may not be able to attract without an apprentice. It is about pointing out that an apprentice brings additional skills to the team and with an accredited skill.

The AD added that where restructures are being carried out, they are seeing departments increase their apprenticeship footprint again.

(xiii) Members referred to the apprenticeship levy and asked how much will go towards a business when they take on an apprentice and how much of the levy covers the cost to a business?

In response the Assistant Director for Employment, Skills, and Adult Learning from LBH explained the levy covers the training element of an apprenticeship. It cannot be used to pay their salary or any other business cost. It must be spent on the cost of the apprenticeship.

The cost of an apprenticeship varies from a Level 7 costing approximately 14,000 to a level 2/3 costing less than a £1,000.

It was explained that a level 7 apprenticeship could be used to upskill a manager in a business to pay for a leadership course or cover the training cost of a level 2 new apprentice.

(xiv) Members referred to the Diversity in Tech work and the event in June 2023. Members asked what difference this piece of work has made to the sector?

In response the Cabinet Member for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH replied some global organisations were present at the Diversity in Tech events and having the conversation with employers was good. Also getting all employers into a room to discuss the diversity gap was an important achievement. This was a key ambition for local tech businesses.

Therefore, being able to bring them into a room to make a commitment to tackling diversity in tech is extremely important. Getting that verbal commitment as a peer group helps to give that commitment more impetus for delivery. The Cabinet Member added following the events they have witnessed some good practices emerging. But the council acknowledges that hiring practices and profit will always take precedence.

The Cabinet Member advised the Commission that a London Tech week was hosted at London Councils this year and that there are plans to hold another week next year (2024). An important role for the Cabinet Lead Member was to make sure the progress steps to close the diversity gap for digital tech and green skills continued for the borough. The Cabinet Member urged the Commission to read the full report by the Diversity in Tech Commission.

(xv) Members referred to resident requests to explore the council’s role in delivering technology training for older residents to support building their confidence and their ability to access and use the internet. Members pointed out the rapidly changing forms of technology will have a significant part in this especially in relation to people returning to work or progressing within a job. This is also crucial to ensuring Hackney has an inclusive economy in the borough. Members asked the Cabinet Member to outline the work within her remit of responsibility that is supporting this for residents.

In response the Cabinet Members for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities from LBH replied that the adult learning prospectus was online and contained information about the training available. The opportunities within this training range from coding through to functional skills and includes an introduction to social networking.

There is also a digital buddy scheme. This allows people to sign up to be a buddy or received training from a buddy. This is free for all residents by emailing digitalskills@hackney.gov.uk.

The Cabinet Member also encouraged residents to sign up to the Hackney Opportunities newsletter. This newsletter contains advertisements about jobs, apprenticeships, and training opportunities too.

The Cabinet Member pointed out that councillors could use this information to sign-post residents if they contacted them asking for information about the opportunities available in the borough.

The Chair thanked the Cabinet Members for Employment, Human Resources and Equalities, Cllr Williams and the Assistant Director Employment, Skills and Adult Learning, Dujon Harvey for their attendance at the meeting.

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