Agenda item

5.1  The Chair welcomed to the meeting Councillor Carole Williams, Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources from London Borough of Hackney.

5.2  The Cabinet Member provided a verbal update in response to the questions submitted in advance of the meeting.  They were related to apprenticeship programme and post 18 skills and adult learning.

5.3  In response to Members questions about the council’s apprenticeship programme.  The main points from the response are outlined below.

5.3.1  The Council has a multi award winning apprenticeship programme, the programme is progressing very well and has won awards in 2018 and 2019 for the employment and skills team work in developing and managing the scheme.

5.3.2  In response to the breakdown of apprenticeships across the council.  There are:

·  20 in Chief Executive

·  55 in Finance and Corporate Resources

·  65 in Neighbourhoods and Housing

·  25 in Children, Adults and Community Health.

 

5.3.3  A dashboard is produced regularly that provides further detail on the above apprenticeships.  The Cabinet Member offered to make this information available to the Commission if they wished to review each category in more detail.

5.3.4  The Council’s corporate apprenticeship scheme is paid at least the London living wage (LLW) and compares well to other London boroughs.  Only 37% of London Boroughs pay their corporate apprentices the LLW.

5.3.5  The council wants to continue its work on apprenticeships by working with local businesses across the borough to share best practice and drive up the quality of apprenticeships.  The council has set up an apprenticeship network.

5.3.6  The criteria for membership of the network requires employers to sign up to paying, at least, the rate of the national minimum wage.  The council also asks employers with social obligations e.g. with Section 106 obligations to join the network.

5.3.7  To date 30 organisations have signed up to the network and an additional 15 are going through the membership process.

5.4  In response to Members questions about post 18 skills and adult learning.  The main points from the response are outlined below. 

5.4.1  The Council’s aim is to improve skills for all residents through adult learning.

5.4.2  The council is exploring the possibility of a pilot for paid work experience for over 50s, similar to the Hackney 100 and apprenticeship programme. 

5.4.3  The council is currently redesigning adult skills and integrating adult learning service with employment and skills service.  There are proposal to co-locate the 2 services.

5.5Questions, Answers and Discussions

(i)  Members made the following enquires:

a)  In relation to the network Members asked for more information about how it is used to support SMEs?

b)  What type of companies they signing up to the network?

c)  Asked for more information about the criteria to be part of network. 

d)  Member pointed out the challenges facing SMEs in relation to operational costs and their ability to cover the cost of an apprentice.  Members asked how the council can support them with apprenticeships

e)  Asked if the council could provide a demonstration of the impact of the network and the measure in place?

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources explained they have a range of businesses signed up to the network covering educational, performing arts and adult social care sectors.

 

In response to the measures they will look at the quality of employment, the number of business that join the network and the outcomes. E.g. number of apprenticeships etc.  The Council is also aiming to have the organisations in the network using a dashboard.  There are plans to include the outcomes of the network in the dashboard they currently produce for their internal monitoring.  This would give the council a breakdown of the impact across the borough and information about the type of businesses, age range of hackney residents participating in addition to gender and ethnicity too.  There are no measure for social class but they do look at disadvantaged groups e.g. NEETS.

 

A sample of business participating are:

·  Hobbs – a 3D academy providing training to residents aged 18 - focused on architecture

·  HSSMI – digital engineering company based at Loughborough University

·  Aviva and Regal Homes.

 

(ii)  Members enquired what percentage of apprenticeships result in permanent roles?

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources and Head of Employment and Skills confirmed approximately 77% of the Council’s apprentice’s transition into a job, a further apprenticeship or higher education.

 

(iii)  Members enquired about the strategic purpose of the network asking if its aim was to support the most enthusiastic and committed employers in the borough or to have as many employers as possible join the network.  Therefore would success be that all employers join or success for the network is having the most advanced and ambitious employers.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources explained it was not for the most advanced and ambitious.  The Council’s aim is to work with a range of businesses.  The council would like to have a network with a diverse range of businesses across sectors and not just the high tech high skilled sector.  The Cabinet Member pointed out they have a number of apprentices in a range of sectors e.g. council and construction. 

 

The Council would like to drive up employment practices and standards across a number of sectors including construction.  The Cabinet Member wants a criteria that is about the percentage of apprentices across the borough.  Making sure the measures demonstrate the outcomes for Hackney as opposed to just sheer numbers.

 

(iv)  Members enquired of the Council was still defining the outcomes and if it would include how to improve the quality of apprenticeships.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources confirmed they were still defining the outcomes and explained this would be part of the work for the Inclusive Economy Strategy.

 

(v)  In terms of developing the quality for the network Members enquired what activity was being conducted as part of the network that establishes what works and what does not.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised this work was in the process of being completed.  It will be part of their assessment work.  Highlighting the network launched last year.  After a period of operation they would reflect to assess what has been achieved in the first year and what they would like to change to make improvements on the outcomes achieved for future years.

 

From the discussion Members summarised their understanding of a successful network as one that:

1.  Has a diversity of employers across different sectors

2.  That the criteria is about their ambition to deliver apprenticeships for the Hackney work force.

3.  The network will aim to improve the quality of apprenticeships and the outcomes rather than just the number of apprenticeships.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources agreed.

 

(vi)  Members enquired if all the companies signed up to the network are Hackney based or based outside the borough boundaries?

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources confirmed yes and no.  The Cabinet Member explained they have companies like Aviva which has a site in the borough but is not a Hackney specific business.

 

(vii)  For clarity Members asked if the companies signing up to the network were doing so because they have a presence in Hackney.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources responded to some extent. 

 

The Head of Employment and Skills pointed out having a presence helps and enables the council to have some leverage on the company but it was not a specific criteria to join the network.  It was highlighted the council is currently in conversations with business in East Bank in Newham to encourage them to sign up to the network too.

 

(viii)  Members referred to the borough boundaries in Hoxton East and Shoreditch Ward and referenced that it has areas of deprivation, some higher levels of unemployment but closely located to an area of significant employment opportunities.  Members pointed out there is a large number of companies in that borough and a small number of borough residents.  Members enquired if the council worked with other boroughs like the City of London to connect their apprenticeship programme and network with organisations in that borough too? 

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources explained the challenge is that some of the corporate businesses have their own apprenticeship programmes.  However the Cabinet Member did not exclude there may be opportunities to explore partnering with the council and offering apprenticeships through the council’s network to hackney residents.

 

The Cabinet Member pointed out that tech city and digital Shoreditch has grown across the borough to different location and there is a large number of high end businesses they can work with elsewhere in the borough.

 

(ix)  Members referred to the comments about construction and highlighted the borough has a large volume of construction projects currently in the borough; some of which are managed by the council and others have come though the council’s planning system.  Members commented there seems to be disparity between the number of companies that participate and how they meet targets for apprenticeships or work experience.  Members enquired how the council was evaluating how effective the council is in monitoring construction projects, in terms of the quality of employment they are offering, particularly for the projects the council has huge engagement with.

 

(x)  In reference to the Cabinet Members points of wanting to “drive up employment practices and standards across a number of sectors including construction”.  Members asked for her views on this and the role the council would have in achieving this?

 

(xi)  Members referred to the London wide work by the Deputy Mayor of London about the good work standards and asked if the council had signed up to this?

 

The Head of Employment and Skills confirmed the Council has signed up to the good work standard through HR.  The officer also pointed out the criteria for the apprenticeships network is aligned with the London wide good work standard and hold them to a higher standard than the Greater London Authority (GLA).

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised there is more work for the council to do to look at how they can drive up standards across the workforce and not just apprenticeships.  Particularly in the changing labour market and the changing economy.  The council needs to use the Inclusive Economy Strategy to change employment outcomes for people and ensure they do not have large numbers of hackney residents in low pay, low skilled or low standard work.  But rather that local residents are able to share in the wealth of the borough.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills informed the Commission where they have Section 106 obligations the council has leverage.  They will apply the criteria of the apprenticeship network to those agreements, explaining the organisation will be required by planning to report on local labour and apprenticeships on a regular basis.  This is recorded in a dashboard each quarter.  As at June – September 2019 there were 42 new apprenticeship starts across 14 different businesses in constructions.  As a result of the apprenticeship network these apprenticeships are of a set standard.  The council uses Section 106 to apply the apprenticeship network standards where possible which is more than other London boroughs do currently.

 

(xii)  Members enquired about the process or action taken during and after the project if it is known a project will not meet its targets? 

 

The Head of Employment and Skills advised the target is ‘at least one full framework apprentice for every £2 Million of construction contract value.  Or the equivalent number if a shared apprenticeship model is offered’.  If they do not meet this target Planning can issue a fixed fee as a fine.  However the Council aims to have a constructive relationship and generally will seek to have discussion prior to that stage.  If the view is they cannot take on the number of apprentices because of the nature of the scheme, they will consider if they can do some work experience placements or alternative employment.  When an agreement is made an employment and skills work plan is set up.  The officer pointed out a scheme like the Britannia development is providing a range of different outcomes not just jobs and apprenticeships.

 

(xiii)  Members commented it would be useful to see the targets and outputs per project, the action taken and the reasons given for not meeting the targets.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills also advised that they also push for non-construction apprenticeships too like head office roles.  A challenge they face with constructions apprenticeships is the time frame for apprenticeships.  An apprenticeship training framework is often a minimum of 12 month – 18 months.  Sometimes the build project can be less e.g. 16 weeks / 20 weeks.  In these cases its difficult so what they try to do is move apprentices across different schemes.  But this is not always possible.  The council is looking at moving across boroughs too.

 

(xiv)  Members asked what the council would like to see from national Government to help them to enhance the work they have achieved with the apprenticeship scheme.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised the biggest ask would be to have more flexibility with the levy and how it can be used.  Hackney uses the levy within the boundaries of the law but in terms of delivering apprenticeships across the borough with partner organisations and businesses, they could do more of this with more flexibility in the scheme.

 

(xv)  Members enquired what this flexibility would entail.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised it would entail being able to use the levy in different ways and being able to share apprenticeships.  Having the ability to deliver more part time flexible apprenticeships.  The council is managing to do it for their scheme but not all businesses can make this provision.

 

(xvi)  Members enquired if companies could donate or spend their apprenticeship levy vouchers with the council?

 

The Head of Employment and Skills informed the Commission the apprenticeship levy could not be used to pay an apprentice’s salary.  For SMEs this was a big barrier.  Companies can transfer up to 25% of their levy.  The council is currently helping to support companies to transfer the levy through the network.  Locally some larger organisations (including the council) transfer money to smaller companies (SMEs).  The officer explained the ability to make the transfer to another company is not a simple process so the council is providing support to enable this locally.

 

In discussions Members commented the complexity of the process is limiting the ability of other companies to do this and the council too.  Members highlighted that Hackney borough would benefit from that type flexibility in the scheme to help support SMEs that would like to offer apprenticeships.

 

In discussions Members commended the journey of the council in relation to establishing the corporate apprenticeship programme, reflecting the Cabinet member has taken it from the scrutiny review through to implementation by Cabinet. 

 

(xvii)  Members enquired about the scope to share with other neighbouring boroughs the information about how Hackney has established a successful apprenticeship programme and its best practice.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources thanked Members for the recognition of the journey.  In terms of sharing the experiences of Hackney the Cabinet Members informed the Commission she is a member of, a number of, London wide boards that meets quarterly.  At these meetings they discuss the apprenticeship programmes.  They also share their experiences, data and the breakdown of information collated.

 

From the London wide discussions the Cabinet Member has observed that when the apprenticeships programmes sits within HR in an organisation it has not necessarily made same level of progress like the Hackney scheme.  The Cabinet Member pointed out in Hackney they have a dedicated employment and skills team that manages the apprenticeship programme and looks after the apprentices.  They are key to driving up the standards and making it an award winning scheme.

 

The Cabinet Member pointed out having it sit within a dedicated team is extremely important and having corporate and political oversight makes a difference to achievements with the scheme.

 

(xviii)  Members made the following enquires:

a)  How closely do you work with the national apprenticeship body? 

b)  In relation to supporting apprentices.  If an apprentice is unsure of what apprenticeship to apply for what guidance and advice is offered in regards to training and work or the type of apprenticeship to go for.

c)  How many disability confident employers are part of the network and how many people with a learning disability or disabled are support through the programme?

d)  What support is offered at application stage to apprentices when they apply?

e)  What mental health support is available to apprentices?

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised at application stage the employment and skills team give pre application support and they hold open days – they have held an apprenticeship fair.  There is an assessment day where the team will talk through the roles that exist, what apprenticeships are available and what might suit the individual - taking into consideration their skills, experience and their interests.  The Cabinet Member pointed out it is not uncommon for a person to come with one apprenticeship in mind but ending up with another apply for a more suitable apprenticeship and it has worked better for them.

 

In regards to the disability confident employers.  The council is a disability confident employer.  This is not a criteria for membership to the network.  Therefore they would not turn away an employer if they were not disability confident employers.

 

(xix)  Members enquired if the criteria included a set list of standards or was this bespoke to each employer?

 

The Head of Employment and Skills confirmed there is a list of standards.

 

The Cabinet Members offered to share the list of standards with the Commission.

 

ACTION

Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources to send to the Commission the list of standards for the apprenticeship network membership.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills advised they have a supported internship for people with a disability.  This is currently in partnership with the Homerton NHS Foundation Trust University Hospital.  The aspiration is to grow this programme in line with the inclusive economy strategy aims.

 

The officer pointed out where the Council has social value leverage they will ask employers if they can accommodate work placements for a person with a disability.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources confirmed the council does not work closely with national scheme.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills informed the Commission the manager has provided training to the Civil Service on how to operate an apprenticeship programme.

 

The Cabinet Member Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised they offer general mental health support to all staff through HR policies.  Mental health support was not covered by one specific policy through various HR policies. 

 

The dedicate apprenticeship team within employment and skills provide pastoral support and works closely with the apprentices.

 

(xx)  Members enquired if the pastoral support was assigned throughout the time of the apprenticeship. 

 

The Head of Employment and Skills advised there is training support given to managers hosting an apprentice in addition to the pastoral support to apprentices.

 

(xxi)  Members enquired what proportion of apprentices have an Education Health Plan (EHP) or are on the SEND register within the current scheme.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources confirmed the council does have a supported internship for residents who have a learning disability.

 

The employment and skills team is working closely with the HLT SEND team to consider where an internship might be suitable for some people.  They also consider where the funding support attached to the plan might be used to support an internship.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills informed the Commission they currently have 8 people employed by the Council and the Homerton Hospital.  The vision is for the numbers doing the internship to grow.  The employment and skills team is in the process of recruiting a member of staff to work with the SEND team to visit schools to talk to parents and young people about the pathways into supported internships.

 

(xxii)  Members enquired how the council envisaged building up capacity for this scheme going forward and if they had expected outcomes in mind?

 

The Head of Employment and Skills informed the Commission the aim is to have as many people as possible aged 16-25 with a plan to consider employment and to move into an internship.  This would involve a culture shift and change in mid set from seeing SEND young people aged 25 plus slip out of support.  This would also require more supported internship placements. To establish this programme the council has led by example and is talking to business.  Through the inclusive economy strategy work they will be seeking to influence and navigate business to think about how they can host supported internships.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources pointed out it was important that the Council’s workforce is representative and this was a key step towards achieving this.  This work was about improving the employment experience for the proportion of the workforce within the borough who have a disability.

 

(xxiii)  Members referred to the success of network and enquired about the council’s framework for measuring success or a timeline for evaluation?  Members also enquired if the evaluation would be carried out externally or was it an internal process?

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised they are having conversation to consider the best methods for evaluation.  Currently there is no further detail to report.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills informed this would also form part of the work for the inclusive economy strategy.

 

Members commented it was important to establish what will be measured from the outset and what the Council expects to achieve in year 1, year 2 and year 3.

 

(xxiv)  Members asked for further information about the work experience pilot for residents aged 50 and over?

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources informed the Commission they wish to deliver a training programme that is similar to the Hackney 100 programme and delivers against 2 of the Council’s manifesto commitments.

 

The Council has discussed having 2 cohorts.  One cohort will include ESOL learners and residents over 50 years of age (launching in the next few months).  The council is looking at tailoring the provision delivered by adult community learning services.  The second cohort will be 16-24 year olds (launching later this year - September).

 

(xxv)  Members enquired how many people would be in a cohort.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources confirmed they are planning to have 8-12 people in a cohort.

 

(xxvi)  Members asked for further information about the drivers for the integration of the adult learning and employment and skills services.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources informed Members some of the drivers are linked to the changes in the adult education budget, changes within labour market, changes in the welfare system and political priorities.  The Council’s aspiration is to consolidate services to deliver the employment outcomes they envisage in the 2018 manifesto commitments.

 

The outcomes will be the delivery of employment opportunities and having a pathway from adult education courses to the employment skills discussed.

 

(xxvii)  Members enquired if the Council was making a saving from the integration and if it was making savings would they be reinvested in adult education.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources confirmed there will be savings from the integration but this was not the driver for the change.  The Cabinet Member confirmed savings would be reinvested in adult education services.

 

(xxviii)Members asked why the integrated approach for the 2 services was considered the best option to achieve the outcomes.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources advised there was some duplication between the 2 teams.  The employment and skills team has grown since the first set of mayoral manifesto commitments in 2016.  The council does need to think more about how the 2 services work together.  There is regular liaison between the 2 teams.  The council wants to be clearer about adult education outcomes and have a pathway for adult learners to move into the employment opportunities.

 

The Head of Employment and Skills added that another driver was the division of the adult education budget by the GLA.  The GLA was moving towards a more outcomes based approach.  The officer highlighted whilst the funding remains constant they are looking at a range of outcomes which includes some of the traditional outcomes and more measurable outcomes like employment.  This is one of the reasons why several councils have looked at this type of integration as an option.  Hackney Senior Management Team considered a range of options from having separate services to a deeper level of integration than they are pursuing now.  The officer pointed out the curriculum team would remain untouched in adult learning and will continue to have a separate management structure.

 

(xxix)  Members suggested the Cabinet Member returns at a future date to give an update on the integration and how they have managed to maintain the long term ambitions of employability alongside the value of adult learning.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources agreed to return with a further update.

 

The Chair commended the work of the Cabinet Member and the council teams in relation to the development of an award winning apprenticeship programme and adult learning services.

 

The Cabinet Member for Employment, Skills and Human Resources placed on record her thanks to all the employment and skills staff for their work.